Dressage: Riding on the curb?

Depends upon the person and the horse (their level of expertise and where they are at that day determines it) -- but yeah, some dressage riders will school riding on the curb, just as they practice riding on the snaffle only.

3 in 1 is the method used by the Spanish Riding School -- the snaffle is the bit for lateral bend, hence keeping it 2 handed for ability to direct rein, but 4 in 1 can/has been used by some (to show the horse is moving off the seat and leg) and of course the 2-2 method is the one commonly seen in competition (although not all the time)....and there's even two different ways to hold that combo (the Fillis method -- at least that's what I got taught the name was -- which is influenced by Baucher, and the one most often seen which is influenced by the Hannover school).

**I think the "thing" is: riding on the curb alone CAN be an demonstration of the highest level of training...but only if it's done correctly. It takes a horse that's been well trained and conditioned and a rider that has a good seat, hands, timing, control -- if it's done correctly. But nobody should be fooled by the fool who gets on and does really incorrect stuff "on the curb" and tries to sell it as "highest level of yada, yada" -- be better off with the person who rides in a simple snaffle and does that right

**now that I've read the article, I can see why 3 in 1 (or even 2-2) would be ridiculous for the western rider using a bosal and a spade, but I'm wondering if the western riders ever use the snaffle in this training process to introduce lateral bend.

 

Yes, but as the majority has shifted to worry more about test scores than the artistry of the discipline, you see it less and less.

 

Well, considering the way a bosal is shaped, you're probably not going to get the same effect as with a snaffle. The mechanics would appear to be all different I assume.

I'm not saying your horses don't bend (or anyone else's for that matter) -- I'm just wondering if they do any work to get the lateral bend in a snaffle, since that's the bit's major claim to fame as a direct rein bit.

 

Ultimately lateral bend should come from the seat and leg aids. However I'm not sure that you can truly teach a horse to bend laterally in the truest form without teaching it through a snaffle..

Mike, do you get a wet, salivating mouth when working a horse strictly on a bosal?

 

If I may, I think she meant a lateral bend all the way through the body -- yes, the bend needs to come from the legs (and seat) but the snaffle reinforces and upholds that bend (horses can give a false bend by being canoodles in their neck and tipping their face -- a snaffle can be a great tool to keep that from happening and/or a great tool to get the horse to stretch truly into that bend).

As for the foam -- yeah, at least a wet mouth, as an indicator of a soft mouth that's accepting the bit and not grabbing it, but I've seen horses that didn't get much (damp mouth???) and were soft/accepting, and in two cases horses that slobbered all over their bits, and were resistant/grabbing as all get out. This isn't generally the case, but the particular odd cases do happen and have to be taken into account.

 

A snaffle will act directly on the horse's mouth, this can be direct action on one or the other side of the mouth to encourage/back up a lateral bend in the horse's neck and throatlatch. It does a better job of this than a curb or curb type bit because of this direct action -- hence its use as a bit for training lateral bend and as the bit for lateral bending in the double (hence the 3-1 or 2-2 rein hold in dressage, and why some dressage riders will "show" or test the horse's ultimate throughness by riding 4-1 from time to time). OOOh, and I should have added: or they will ride on the curb alone, to show/test their horse's ability to bend laterally through seat and leg, and lack of need for the direct rein in that instance.

Yes, the bend should originate in the leg and seat -- but...when training a horse that horse may not get the notion of doing so right from the start from your leg and seat (after all, these are alien concepts to the unschooled horse as they didn't evolve to be doing work for humans), and thus the snaffle comes into play. And of course, this is hard work, this bending properly, so if a horse can it will cheat (and who can blame them? they weren't made to go around doing things humans tell them to do in fact working hard is in direct opposition to what their nature tells them to do -- which is expend as little energy on nonessential things as possible -- so if they can loaf a little they will usually do it). The snaffle is a good tool to teach the horse to bend and to not cheat (good, proper, and considerate riding/training a given in this scenario of course). It's just a good tool to connect all three parts laterally, no more, no less.

I could say that a curb and a bosal are also just whatever the hands of the rider offer to the horse and are not the key to bending the pipe thus not necessary as otherwise without that rider's seat/leg/hands creating the whatever they don't do a damn thing

 

No, I didn't get the "tag" -- please do, it would be an interesting read.

 

It makes most sense to me that you would teach a horse about connection and bending in a snaffle first then move (or move back) to the bosal or hackamore. Part of teaching connection is release of the jaw and poll...how do you access the jaw without a bit?

I asked about a wet mouth because when a horse is connected, it increases salivation. Without a bit you will get more moisture in the mouth, sometimes causing a slight drooling or bubbling at the bottom of the mouth. I assumed you did not get "foam" since that's caused by the motion of the bit moving across the tongue.

 

I don't know if it's so much breaking their jaw loose [with regards to using a snaffle]...it's just using a bit that's designed to work directly, especially in the lateral direction.
The snaffle is a pretty simple bit, that gives a pretty simple (to the horse) to understand directional aid, so it is a pretty easy to understand (for horse and come to think of it, the rider), effective tool for connecting the horse laterally (over the topline is actually a bit trickier with a snaffle and takes some education/tact on the part of the rider, but obviously it's possible).

While it could devolve into "breaking their jaws" -- I think that could apply to any bit. Again, it comes down to how it's used. If used correctly, it's a great tool; if used incorrectly then the big thing one sees is see-sawing (and a horse above, usually, or behind, sometimes, the vertical). Obviously people see this because the snaffle is also the bit of the beginning rider -- direct rein, simple action, doesn't do quite the damage that a leverage bit could in the hands of somebody who is learning -- and of course, just because it is the go to bit for the beginning rider doesn't mean somebody with some skill can't play a pretty tune with it.

Still haven't found that article you posted Mike...was it sometime back? My kids post a lot of krazy kat pictures, I have a hard time not sending on lost pet info, so I may be wading through some stuff. But I would like to read it.

 

Welll, I would probably add "breaking their jaws" with the rest of what you put -- but that would be a case of "you're not using it right". Which is just like everything else: if you don't use it right, don't expect the right results.
Of course, when people are learning this is going to happen; that's the name of the game -- the key is to eventually have people using it right.
And then there's the whole bit with the horses -- who have ideas of their own.

 

They aren't coming into it. When a horse bends, ( or ) laterally they are curving away from the direct rein aid -- which is backing up the seat/leg aid on that side, which originates the bend, comes first, the bend has to result from the horse's hind stepping up under and carrying, yada, yada. So while their face may be coming to it; it isn't so much a nose coming to, but a bend away (and this is where some confusion does take place -- the emphasis should be on reinforcing the bend away, staying connected nose to tail, rather than having the face come to).
The snaffle provides a pretty direct, simple aid insofar as this is concerned, but as with everything if it's done/applied incorrectly...

 

Aha! Watched the video (many thanks Mike). I can see the pros and cons and all points inbetween of it.
For someone working with a bosal, the rein aid being used makes a lot of sense and would get the result (provided it's used correctly, legs and seat, yada yada).

http://glenshee.blogspot.com/2008/08/five-rein-aids-introduction.html