Arabian bloodlines -- let's talk

Discussion in 'The Foaling Stall' started by JenR, Jan 21, 2009.

  1. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    For all the Arab folks, let's talk Arab bloodlines. What are the pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses of some of the Arab lines.

    I thought this might be fun and educational for all the breeders, non-breeders, and armchair breeders out there; please feel the urge to play along.
     
  2. syndiego

    syndiego New Member

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    Okay, I'll play. First off, my disclaimer that generalizations are just that. There are good and bad individuals, regardless of the bloodlines.

    I tend to gravitate towards the CMK lines (Crabbet/Maynesboro/Kellog and Davenport-the silent D in CMK). The founders of those bloodlines were breeding for "type", not breeding names in a pedigree, or breeding to the sire-de-jour. The definition of "type" being "typical" Arabian characters, including sound/trainable minds, athleticism, correct conformation. The word type has been twisted into some meaning of "extreme typiness", which for some breeders/bloodlines has turned what was a useful/functional/family oriented breed, into a freakish cartoon characatures. (mini rant over ;D). They foundation breeders based their programs on the mares, with a battery of stallions that best complemented those mares traits; i.e. a recognition that no one animal is perfection. When the import craze started in the 60/70's, often the leading sires (think *Bask) made their names by being bred to CMK mares.

    I met Bazy Tankersly (Al-Marah) at US Nationals the last year it was in Louisville, and what a treat as she is certainly an icon to me. I love her philosophy that "the goal of any breeding program should be a good riding gelding" or something to that effect. She is also one who was quick with the knife, if any stallion in her program showed any inkling of aggression or poor disposition.

    My mare Indy is 60% Egyptian (sire), the remainder being CMK with a Davenport tail female line. I chose a CMK stallion for her to mitigate some of the "edginess" that most likely comes from her Egyptian breeding. Syndiego's sire is a *Serafix grandson, *Serafix having been imported from Crabbet, and was the leading sire in the US before *Bask entered the scene. I wasn't getting any younger, so disposition of the foal was high on my list of what I was breeding for.


    I'm also fond of Spanish bloodlines, but not very knowledgable. I just admire them, because again they are athletic and solid conformation.
    I believe the hunter/jumpers in the Arabian world have a good deal of Spanish representation. Stanley Ranch in California comes to mind.

    To me, correct conformation=beautiful Arabian, and some of these freak shows that are dominating the halter scene are ugly to me.
     

  3. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    Good points. I've heard some other Arab breeders talk about the importance of getting the Arabian back to being a riding horse first, who just happens to look pretty. The Sporthorse in Hand appears to be getting really popular (and the western performance) in Arabs right now -- could be a good thing for the breed, but I hope they don't make it a dead end achievement without some riding/performance component.

    So what traits to the CMKD horses have -- conformationally, movement, temperment (which the Germans would break down into trainablity and a portion of rideablity)? How about the Egyptians?

    I've seen the very narrow Egyptian horses, and can't say I like them at all. My mom bred a sporthorse from a stallion once -- Ansata Ibn Halima. I believe he was all E, and he was built like a tank (looked like an old fashioned Morgan) but the foal ended up very lithe. Similarly, the foal had a very charming, intelligent disposition, but wasn't one to be pushed around by anyone. Overall, I'd say I liked the old type E my mom chose, but I think I'd stay away from hot horses to breed to that.

    And from my small experience with the Arabs, I have to say I like the Polish/Russian horses quite a lot, as they seem to be very "sporthorsey"; I don't know if they are that much different from other Arab lines though. They seem to be very tough and like to work. I may be biased on that though.

    I've heard a lot of people talk about Khemosabi, and how he was such a great sire of the "family performance horse"?
     
  4. syndiego

    syndiego New Member

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    Well, when talking Egyptian, I'm almost compelled to split them out from "Old Egyptian" to new Egyptian. As a generalization, modern Egyptians are bred as "living works of art", with little regard to conformation and disposition. Some of them tend to be very hot.

    Khemosabi was one of the last (may be the last) national champion in both halter and performance. You see his name often in working western disciplines. He's a mixture of CMK and Babson (which is old Egyptian), but basically I call him "domestic/foundation" breeding.

    The thing that most strikes me about the Polish and Russian horses are based on state breeding programs, and in Poland (perhaps Russian too?)stallions must pass a performance test before being bred. That in itself, stacks the deck to a more athletic, sporthorse type of horse. Wish breeders here could be held to some sort of standard, but it's America, you know. Russian/Polish breeding dominate Arabian race horse bloodlines.

    Crabbet's second phase, with Lady Wentworth at the helm (the Blunts daughter) focused heavily on the Polish bred Skowronek. A lot of "purists": (Al Khamsa) will argue that he was not a purebred Arabian, but in my view is one of the most "perfect" Arabians of all time. Raffles, a name that I am sure you are familiar with, is the product of inbreeding Skowronek to his daughter.

    Some people type-cast Polish Arabians as being course and off-type. (But, as I said in my previous post, solid-boned, correct conformation, is "on" type), but some of the most beautiful mares I have ever layed eyes on, were produced in Poland.

    Another Polish arabian that I admire, is Witez II. (spoils of WWII - Patton rescued him from the Germans). John Rogers, the owner of *Serafix, crossed *Serafix on Natez (by Witez II) daughters, which is considered a "golden cross"
     
  5. Roherynn

    Roherynn New Member

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    I'm not all too familiar with Arabian bloodlines, but I really like pretty much anything out of Ibn Kamim++. He was an awesome horse....it is just unfortunate that his show career was cut so short.
     
  6. syndiego

    syndiego New Member

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    I wasn't familiar with the name, but he's on allbreedpedigree. Interestingly, he's an Ansata Ibn Halima grandson.

    Just a rough glance, he is 25% Egyptian (Ansata Ibn Halima), and 75% CMK.

    What a lovely horse. What happened and how do you know him?
     
  7. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    And who was this Ibn horse? Do tell us some more about him!
     
  8. Roherynn

    Roherynn New Member

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    Ibn Kamim was by Kamim...he won a lot of halter classes when he was younger, but then he got into a freak accident that took off half of one of his hooves. That is what cut his career so short. :( I've got an old stud book that he was featured in along with his sire, and I can get more facts about him from there...

    I believe he was owned by Pam Blanton...I know he was from OK, but I cannot remember the farms name or if that was his original owner. But he ended up being sold to Church Hill Arabians in WI where they used him for breeding. I own one of his daughters, Kamiiri, and she is the best mare that I have ever owned. I used to be one of those "arab haters" that thought that they were ditzy, but she totally changed my mind; she is the smartest and sweetest horse ever that has built up my confidence. I doubt I will ever find another horse like her.

    I never met Ibn Kamim, but he had great conformation and a beautiful head...it was not so extreme as I have seen some today, but it was just lovely. I believe that most of the horses by him have done fairly well in WP (my mare does reining). Otherwise, I have talked with others that have met him, and they all stated he had a great personality and was a shame that his injury happened.

    His owners wrote an article that was featured in Horse Illustrated when he died. I think his health was starting to deteriorate when they had to put him down...they had dug a hole for him, and when they took him out there, they talked about how he was so proud. It was quite depressing, but I wish that I could get a copy of it. I thought that it was quite weird how that article ended up making such an impression on me, and then we ended up buying one of his daughters....we realized the connection years after we bought her.
     
  9. Susan

    Susan New Member

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    My Donna-Lee Delight was heavily Raffles bred via her Asil Dynasty sirelines. Her tail female lines went back to Blunt Breeding through Nabila 653. I loved that mare - she was my trail buddy for many yrs and had a good mind as well as a sound body. Her son, CHF O Danny Boy took her place as my trail horse until just before my divorce (I placed him with someone so my X couldn't do anything with him or to him). Danny's sire was EGB Brian Boru who's sire was Kamim++. I was lucky enough to live 10 miles from Kamim++ and he was an awesome horse. I should have bred Delight to him, but never did - it would have been a good cross I think. I used to show Danny in halter as a baby and stopped when he was three or four. I showed Delight in WP. I really miss them both and I have not owned another Arabian since.
     
  10. Blueyz2

    Blueyz2 New Member

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    I had an arab mare with Raffles breeding. I can't remember what else she had though, and I dont have access to look it up. But she was an awesome mare! I never owned another arab since though.
     
  11. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    My old man is an Aladdinn grandson, and his mother was a Raffles granddaughter out of a Llano (Conquistador?? somethink like that) mare. He isn't "halter horse" typey and a pretty solid little chunk of a horse (14.3, about 800 lbs. when fully fit, w/ a shade off 9 inches of cannon bone and a hammered back 2 shoe, when he needed to wear one, which wasn't very often -- yowsers, you don't see that sort of stuff much anymore) back when he was young, but oddly enough this Eygptian guy I met the acquaintence of (and he was on their olympic show jumping team -- I didn't even know they had one), anyway, he liked the looks of him -- said he looked more like an Arab than a lot of the Arabs in this country, so I guess I'll take his word for it (wish I had a pic of the old fart back when he was young and handsome).

    He was a pretty versatile horse and a great work ethic -- pretty hot, but not stupid or mean about it (he's taught all my kids so far how to ride, and with luck he'll teach Pookie and The Dude). Did pretty well against WBs and TBs in dressage, had some dressage riders and an endurance rider offer money for him (a lot more than we paid that's for sure).

    It was funny, if he was around a h/j show -- the h/j people would swear up and down that he had to be a Welsh x with Arab, the western people used to swear up and down that there was some QH in there, eventers were positive he was a Morab/TB cross (or a pony of some kind), and the dressage folks just knew he was half Trak. None of them would ever believe at first that he was 100% Arab -- then they would say he was a freak because he didn't move or act like an Arab. I used to tell them "no, I've got a real Arab" ;D

    If I could clone him successfully I would -- he's one of my favorite horses, if not THE favorite ever (although my Bold Ruler TB and my Poco Bueno QH were very special).
     
  12. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    I have only been around Arabs for about 6 1/2 years, but I definately have a few favorite horses in my barn.

    We have two mares, mother and daughter who are not only gorgeous, but very, very, very, sweet and simple to take care of. Also the daughter's colt in 2008 was absolutely the best foal I have ever been around. NEVER was a biter, kicker, ears back, ever. Just wanted to do whatever made you happy. He was also very smart. One quick lesson and he "got it" with leading, haltering, bathing, clipping, the blanket, trailering... etc..

    Mother:
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sahara+royale

    Daughter:
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tf+saharas+ali

    Son/Grandson:
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sc+charisma+ali

    SC Charisma Ali is being shown at Scottsdale in February ;D

    We had some oldies but goodies when I moved here too. They have all since passed...

    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/contentious2 (passed away at 30)

    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/flises+flame

    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/buchanan3 (This horse was SUCH a sweet guy. Passed away at 31)
     
  13. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    I notice one of the "oldies but goodies" you mention Shannon had Hadban Enzahi close up in the pedigree. I don't really know anything about that horse, but we had four WBs with him two - three generations back in the pedigree. He seemed to improve bone and feet, put a prettier head on them, and the contribution to the temperment was enormous -- very cheerful horses who really seemed to love life and like people, and lived to work. The Germans, while not caring much for the first generation cross (too small), are delighted to see Arab in the second (or better, third) generation back in a horse's pedigree -- at least that's the way they were 12 odd years ago, when I was going to inspections. They used to love Arab in a pedigree and old school American system h/j riders...and some of the reiners.
     
  14. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    do you want the good news or the bad news?
     
  15. let me have both. I can't change what she is, so I might as well know what I have here.
     
  16. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    Well, she has some pretty nice, big names in her pedigree, but you have to go 2,3,4 generations back for it. So, she's pretty much your garden variety, average Arab -- nothing spectacular there so far as her pedigree is concerned.

    They're nice, working lines, but again her pedigree isn't a hot selling point. As far as marketing her, it would have to be off of her as an individual and what she's done.
     
  17. Thanks for the info. I am selling her as a riding horse only. Not asking alot, and letting folks know her papers were lost along time ago by a former owner.
     
  18. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    ???
    If the papers were lost a long time ago by a former owner, are you sure that is her real pedigree then? Did they make copies of the pedigree on the original? If so, you should be able to get in touch with the registry and might be able to get the papers reissued -- certainly wouldn't hurt to try.
     
  19. yes, I am positive that is her. I truthfully don't care about papers - if she sells grade that is ok too. I will be moving soon, and if I don't get her sold, then she goes with.