Breeders Help Please??

Discussion in 'The Foaling Stall' started by Amurry, Jun 7, 2011.

  1. Amurry

    Amurry New Member

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    Experienced breeders looking for your advice so I can form a game plan for next season. I ended this year with an open mare many think she just does not want to be a Momma. I am willing to try again next year and cover every base possible to try to make this happen. She is a very special mare to both my family and I. She is not a world champion and many people question why I just dont go buy. These are valid questions, yes I agree.

    Her History.
    She was bred in 2008. Bred live cover. 15 days later she was confirmed in foal. Progesterone was 4 and the vet felt this was borderline and she was but on 5 ml Regumate for 120 days. Check at 120 days was a strong heart beat and she was taken off Regumate. 2009 She carried her foal almost to term to the point at which she developed placentitis. At this point she was 6 weeks away from her due date. With the help of my vet we were able to hold her off for a month with double dosing of Regumate, antibiotics, banamine ect. She was still two weeks shy of her due date. Sadly she aborted. She was not cultured but was flushed with saline/antibiotics. We did not rebreed as this would of already been a late foal.

    The following Spring (2010) she was cultured and had cytology done in prep to be bred. Both came back from the lab clean. She was not bred this year due to the stallion owner that did not honor my rebreed.

    This Spring again culture and cytology again came back clean. She was bred in April (live cover). The soonest the vet could get her in would be around 30 days (should of found another vet I know). So I thought ok I will wait and do a 30 day heart beat and confirm. So she came back in so I took her back to be bred. My Grandpa has stallions so I am able to tease her to know when she is in or coming in. She had a really odd cycle this time around (May) , going on a week and a half. She was bred the night we picked her up. We took her to the vet and he said everything in there looked great. She had recently ovulated and he had no reason to believe she would not be in foal in 2 weeks when we took her back for her pregnancy check.

    I am honestly seeing the errors in my ways. As in January/Feb. she did have two odd transitional like cycles that were around 2 weeks. I waited it out and in March she has a perfect cycle and April when I took her to be bred she again had a picture perfect cycle. May she had the odd cycle again, but was taken to the vet. In which she had ovulated and was bred the night before which would of been perfect timing.

    On her preg check 15 days later the vet was seeing pooling of fluid and I clearly saw it on the U/S as well. I seen both ovaries building follicles. He felt good tone, seen no scaring in the uterus seen folding which he said is normal when they are getting ready to cycle. He seen inflammation which he felt was a start of infection. I asked if I could flush her or lavage her now. He felt I should bring her back in the fall and do biopsy, culture, cytology then.

    A few people I have talked to since have expressed their feelings that it should of been taken care of then to prevent scarring ect... I had kind of felt that way as well. I have confidence in my vet as he has never steered me wrong before. I have also talked with some that say they would do as my vet and wait and do it this fall or early spring to get it under control. Who knows she may not even have a infection, this is the stuff that needs to be figured out. I just know I want it taken care of before the first of the year so that I may have a good start and not end up right were I am now.

    Back to my errors... I should of taken her back after her culture and cytology in Feb. when she was having odds cycles and had her U/S to see what her ovaries were doing and treated her accordingly.

    Now that I know what she is doing after bred is what I need to address if I want to make this work.

    So for 2012-

    Ok she is now clean, I have her biopsied to see what grade her uterus is. I have her cycling properly with the help of my vet, I am starting early in the year, Febuary...
    If I do live cover her to the stallion this is what I need to do in my mind. Please add or correct me if I am not correct.
    Once she starts cycling take her to be U/S see where she is at. Take her at the time she is about to ovulate to be bred live cover. After she is covered take her back to the vet make sure she has ovulated. Make sure it has been at least 5-8 hours post breeding. Give her a shot of oxytocin, lavage or flush if needed. Check back in 16ish days to see if there is a baby in there. Check hormones and treat if needed with Regumate...

    Ok after going through the above scenario I am starting to think ok would it just be easier to use AI?? I do have a breeding I purchased a few years ago that the only way to use it is by shipped seamen. Should I explore this option instead of live cover?? Since she seems to have this issue being live covered it only makes sense to me that AI is a lot cleaner and my chances are a little more exact.

    Then comes into play... I have been told after using my vet and being pleased with him that he is not someone to use for reproduction work. So if some of the ^ info. seems wrong please let me know so that I can get a second or third opinion. I have also been told the same thing about the U of I so that is one reason I did not go to them in the first place. I was very please with the care they gave my mare when she ulcerated her cornea. They saved her eye and most of her sight. My gut is saying just to take her there NOW and have them do what is needed.

    She is 17 this year. End of Aug first of Sept. 2010 she was under 16 hours of light as I had a few more AQHA shows I had planned on taking her to into the winter. In the middle of Oct. she ulcerated her cornea so those plans were out. I then in Nov. changed both her and my gelding to the flash lighting system. They both kept a short coat, she cycled all winter. Then as I said above had two transitional like cycles Jan/Feb.

    If I need to clarify anything just let me know. I know I am totally probably off base with all of this. I was told I was sinking money into something that is not a sure thing. I know this as breeding is never a sure thing. I could probably already went and bought something for what I have put into all of ^. I honestly know this.

    So let me explain...
    You do not need to read this if you want to hear some long sappy story.
    Sable has been a huge part of my life for the last 17 years. She was a gift to me for all of my hard work I did as a 13 year old child on a family friend's farm. This mare has been through hell and back with me. When I started out with horses I was into the cattle events. I had been through 2 OTTB mares and it was time for a cowhorse of my own. Sable was to be my team penning and cutting horse. I sent her to training as a late two. I had done everything with this gal until that point. What I got back was a horse that nobody could touch. It took we almost two full years to get her sane again. She has been my rock through all of those tuff times as a teenager and into my 20's. Now as I turn 30 she is like my kid as she entered my marriage and is much loved by the hubby as well.

    (Ok warning I am about to use horse terms applied to humans)

    Then fast forward... Enters my 5 year old little cousin that my estranged uncle had sired to an unfit mother. She was in the "system" with no where to go. My parents opened their arms to a very withdrawn little girl that had been threw things any adult would cringe to know. The things this mare has helped this little girl over come are mind blowing. The hours spent brushing and whispering secrets still make me cry. At this point the hours spent riding and showing only further prove to instill values and love to this little girl. It is our goal to try and get a foal for Jadin out of Sable to continue on the legacy of it all.

    If we try again this next year with a game plan for it all and come up empty it is a sign and Sable is telling us she just cant do it. We will except it and make the best of it.

    I have already sunk this much into I hate to give up. I understand what is involved, believe me I know.

    I just have to give Sable one more try to see if I can make this happen for Jadin.

    For 5 years I have tried. So please forum friends if you can be sensitive to the fact that I know this is a soft market for horses and I could go buy. I have my heart in this and need to do the best I can do.

    If I cannot make it work then I can at least say I tried the absolute best I could. I just know that embryo transfer is the last option and an option I do not feel I want to explore.
     
  2. Joie

    Joie New Member

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    Where are you located so I can think about vets? If you are willing to haul her somewhere, and breed AI, I would take her to Dr. Toni in Amboy and leave her there for a month or two for the whole shebang.

    Also, are you dead set against breeding during one of her more "normal" natural cycles in May or June?

    I would have probably wanted her flushed right away if there was the chance of infection, but that's just me. At this point, it doesn't sound like you are confident with your vet, and if you've gone this far you might as well find a vet that you are 100% confident in. I would have thought the first step would have been to do a culture, cytology, AND biopsy, especially with a "history".
     

  3. desederada

    desederada New Member

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    You would think
     
  4. Amurry

    Amurry New Member

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    Thanks Joie. My gut was saying do it now as well. With every question I asked it seemed his answer was just bring her back to me in the fall. It did not sit well with me. That is the main reason I am asking here, talking with other friends ect... I have a call into the U of I but have not gotten a returned call yet, but I just called. I am located near Bloomington. At this point I will haul her to where she needs to go to give this one last chance. I will have to mapquest Amboy to see where it is, I have never heard of it before. Sorry for the long book I typed out above.
     
  5. Tbitt

    Tbitt Most beloved member of MW

    You go to Amboy, then you stop by my place and we will visit...or we do lunch/din din!

    You know, as a good Luck breeding thingy! :laugh: *!*!*!*
     
  6. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    I have known many vets who were great vets, but not great repro vets. U of I used to have a pretty good repro doc - Dr Lock (?), but maybe he is retired? I know crap-all about AI, but think there is some kind of "ship charge" per straw? That could add up... Definately agree w/ the biopsy. NO oxytcin after breeding! Post-breed infuse for general principle? OK, why not? Lavage post-breed is a no-no. Embryo transfer may be your best shot, sorry to say. I am not real familiar with older maiden mares (older read - over 10 yrs), but your mare seems to have some reproductive issues. Sometimes mares just don't carry, but yours has only conceived once and never carried to term. I don't mean to sound snarky, I just wonder if there is not more than one "issue" going on? I can fully understand your attachement and wanting a foal out of her, but I am not sure wanting will make it so. I would very seriously look into embryo transfer. Be glad you can inQH for these types of situations.

    The QH mares having "litters" is a topic for a whole nother thread....
     
  7. Joie

    Joie New Member

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  8. Susan

    Susan New Member

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    I'm not a "breeder", but looking at your post, I'm thinking go to the UofI with the AI and see what happens. You already bought that breeding - use it. If no luck, find a weanling and buy it.
     
  9. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    OH Crap! Brain fart! My addled little brain switched 'Lutalyse' and 'Oxytocin' for some reason.. :-[... SORRY! Thiknk we used a bit oxytocin on the urine poolers? It's been a few years since I did 100+ mares every year, the 2 I have now are easy - they get complicated they'll go formt he easy life to under saddle!
     
  10. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    With the economy still slow and breeding down, it may be really easy to lease a mare for embryo transfer. I am betting plenty of breeders are skipping years for no reason other than the economy and would gladly let someone conscientious free lease a mare.
     
  11. Joie

    Joie New Member

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    I would think so, too. I have considered looking into doing an ET on my old mare, Tara, who gets in foal every time, but aborts at 45-60 days. I am going to try a special DMSO/Betadine lavage, and then give up on trying. It gets heartbreaking after awhile...
     
  12. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    Just re-read your original post and something caught my eye They both kept a short coat, she cycled all winter. Then as I said above had two transitional like cycles Jan/Feb.. Just curious if cycling year-around could be not helping?? Not sure, because even tyhe "under lights" mares never went under lights until Nov/Dec so they still had a " break" in true cycles. I would be interested in learning if that could hurt your chances of conception. Vet I use now is an ol' AQHA Show gal from her youth and a pretty good repro vet now. She used to practice around Weatherford, TX w/ many, many show/breeding places. I shall see what she says about this?
     
  13. paige

    paige New Member

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    She does not sound like a good candidate for ET to me
    I agree that too much manipulation of her cycles for an early foal could be causing problems
     
  14. Amurry

    Amurry New Member

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    You guys could very well be right about having her cycle all year long. You are most likely right last year I should of just pulled her light when she had her eye injury in Oct. It seems like I try and do everything by the books and never get anything to work.

    My grandpa breeds his two old broodmares 18 and 20 this year once to his stallion and boom no more heat cycles. I am sure they will foal like clock work the next spring. At least I will have two mares to foal out and foals to play with next year. Who knows maybe one of them will make me a show horse even though they are bred to be cowhorses LOL I have to wonder if the odds of these two mares are different than my own as the stallion was only covering them., not 5+ like the stallion my mare was being bred to. Not only a higher sperm count but a lower chance of infection due to lower #'s.

    Me I take my mare early in the year have her cytology and cultured clean and form a game plan and it gets me here. I have to wonder if I would of been using a different vet if they all may be different. Ah well should of couldas. Two years in a row I asked about a uterine biopsy. Two years in a row I was told he felt a good tone and wouldnt waste the money for it. I guess I blindly just took his word for it. I have called a few different vets in my area and spoke with them to get a feel of their knowledge base. I feel my best bet is to go with a appointment at the U of I at this point to get her test ran and cleaned up. I am wide open to hauling her anywhere with the knowledge base needed. If you girls could PM me contact info to clinics that would be great. I have this much into it that trying again next year in the scheme of things will not make or break me. I just want someone that has the knowledge to work with me and get a plan of action in the works so that hopefully the stars will align for next year.
     
  15. Moncheval

    Moncheval New Member

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    Good luck. . . it's all heart-wrenching it sounds like. . . Best best best to you and your mare. . . (and five-year-old Jadin you want to help out. . .) . . . Sable sounds like the best mare/friend anyone could have had growing up! :) Good luck figuring out what will work, how. . .