Straight legged mares who have a crooked legged foal?

Discussion in 'The Foaling Stall' started by lori, Feb 4, 2009.

  1. lori

    lori New Member

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    OK, we all know this happens, 2 perfectly straight or perfectly gorgeous horses can and will create a foal who is crooked legged enough or ugly enough to make it unfit for the show prospect you were aiming for. Just like crooked legged or mediocre horses crossed with the right other horse can create a world show level horse.

    What does this mean for your breeding program? What ratio of crooked/ugly to perfect is the mare allowed before you quit breeding her? Would you breed back to the same stud or try a different line?

    Disclaimer: Not that a crooked horse is useless, or ugly/crooked guarantees unsoundness. But if we're all striving for perfection in a breeding program...
     
  2. Shadow

    Shadow New Member

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    off subject here..but my 2 cents...Just cause you can breed doesn't mean you should breed.. there are PLENTY of mediocre horses out there..and PLENTY of good prospects out there...I say do not breed and go buy what you are looking for..the timeframe involved is getting the foal you want is WAY to involved..and 90% of the time you don't get what you are truely wanting. SO I vote on not to re-breed. and time to rethink ANY breeding programs..the market is flooded = prices are in the crapper
     

  3. equusteacher

    equusteacher New Member

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    Um...
    she never said she was looking to breed anything.
    I read her post as a hypothetical poser. Nothing more.
     
  4. lori

    lori New Member

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    Yeah--we can't have a discussion on breeding ethics if we say no breeding, period. But do consider the current market environment which does not demand "NO" breeding, just well planned breeding.

    Let's say the mare and stallion are proven stock, fit to breed, but one of these nice animals throws a crooked foal or unusually ugly foal (assume ugliness sticks and they won't be good fully grown) or whatever--just they throw a foal that is clearly not representitive of the sire and dam's quality. Then what? How does that change if you have 1 good foal before? How does that change if you have 2-3 good ones? What if you're the stud owner? The dam owner?

    C'mon people, trying for conversation here. :D
     
  5. equusteacher

    equusteacher New Member

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    based on that, I'd probably try a different pairing.
    I suppose it could just be a genetic anomoly. IF that pairing had produced nothing but exceptional babies up to this one crooked/ugly one, then maybe I'd try it again If I had the ability to care for 2 non-sellable (non money making) babies.

    it sure IS a poser.
     
  6. pinp

    pinp New Member

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    Honestly, Lori. I'd say twice. If she produces the same flaws with two different studs, it's time for her to find a new job. And if he produces the same with different mares, it's time for him to have brain surgery.

    That said, you can't always buy the horses you want. I'd give my left chesticle for Dorothy spawn but I haven't been able to find one. The two that I know of, I don't stand a snowball's chance to acquire.
     
  7. Suzette

    Suzette New Member

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    Recent studies in Europe are proving that "correctness" of legs below the knee or hock are showing a very low level of heritability.
    In other words, it's NOT genetic, but rather a factor of the way the foal lives in the uterus and grows once it is born.
    So, don't blame genetics.....
     
  8. MidnightHill

    MidnightHill New Member

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    On the ugly factor - I would probably be hesitant to try that cross again. It is VERY hard to sell an ugly foal (unless people just want to buy on bloodlines - which happens).

    On the crooked factor - depending on the severity of it would depend on if I tried it again. Is this thing so crooked it needs correction - such as splints, special shoeing, or even surgery (cause at that point I would NOT try it again) but if we are talking toeing out or a little crooked behind I wouldnt be so scared to give it another go.

    I am not a fan of breeding the mare to the same stallion anyways - I like to try my mare with many bloodlines - but all the stallions MUST be athletic and VERY good at their events. Oddly enough on the crooked leg part - my broodmare toes out in both front feet and EVERY single one of her babies toes out on at least one....a few of them toe out on both.
     
  9. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    It's been my experience that bench knees are incredibly hereditery, other deviations not as hereditery. I, personally, hate offset knees. Won't breed a mare with them. Some trainers don't hate the fault as much as I do. Everyone has their devil-catcher. More crooked horses run than perfect horses (maybe 'cause there are fewer perfect horses?lol). I will forgive a mare an ugly foal. I will forgive a crooked one or 2. As far as the stallion goes, most stallion owners never say "no", lol. Some pretty funky horses can run. As long as someone isn't breeding for the sales ring they usually try the crooked ones, and many make $. Wish you could see "speed" or "heart", but those are all intangibles that you don't find until you have invested months of training in them.
     
  10. paige

    paige New Member

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    I would say twice. And I would try in those two to figure out what the hell is going on --with legs, so much is not hereditary but situational

    I have one mare that is a touch over at the knee- and I knew going into it, I would give her one shot to get it right and if not, no more breeding. both her babies so far have started out crazy looking in the knees, and within a week were perfect. So she got to stay

    I have another one who is put together just right, and both her babies by Sly had good bites--one did not show up until she was weaned and the other was born wacked out. Both are now perfectly normal, but it caused me to quit breeding her altogether since I did not know if it would ever get right.

    I am willing to keep one forever if it comes out wrong, so it is not as big a risk for me.
     
  11. glf01

    glf01 New Member

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    I have seen both straight mare having crooked babies, I feel sometimes that happens because of the way the foal grew inside mom and the sires conformation. I had a TB colt that was out of a serious pidgeon toed mare (she could run though) and he was correct didn't stay sound but was correct. Then the sire at the Vinery in KY is really turned in on one front but he doesn't throw it on to his foals. I have had good luck with foals. But i did feed my mares Healthy Bone while they were in foal and started the babies on it when they were weanlings. I just love the product. It's my secret
     
  12. AppyGSP

    AppyGSP Senior Member

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    My colt had HORRIBLY crooked front legs when he was born...they formed an upside "V", came together at his chest. Vet told me he'd grow out of it, and he sure did!
    [​IMG]
     
  13. burgie

    burgie New Member

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    Off topic - AppyGSP - where was that photo taken? Please tell me it is a somewhat local place!
     
  14. AppyGSP

    AppyGSP Senior Member

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    Burgie: Deer Run Forest Preserve in Cherry Valley, the 2nd Kishwaukee River crossing...


    Back to topic...
     
  15. burgie

    burgie New Member

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    I've been there - but haven't ever come across a second Kish crossing...I thought it looked like you were on a beach. How cool.
     
  16. AppyGSP

    AppyGSP Senior Member

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    Come join me this summer, I'll be at both forest preserves alot this summer.


    Sorry, Lori....back to topic.
     
  17. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    Depends upon the amount and type of crookedness -- something that was so hideously bad that I'd question whether or not it could walk better than a duck I wouldn't breed, but...

    As already stated, lower limb irregularities are proving not so inheritable, other than bench knee and club foot -- which seem to be highly inheritable. I would stay far away from a mare with either condition, I don't care how nice she was otherwise. But I've owned and bred mares that didn't have the grandest lower legs -- most of their problems came from non genetic conditions and had to do with the farrier care they got as youngsters (these mares hailed from the time when quite a few of the farriers and owners used to believe in "straightening up and cranking around" the young, still growing foals; we now know that wasn't such a grand idea -- fortunately, opinions change, and I see fewer horses having those sort of foal trimming induced problems). None of their foals had lower leg issues, and the one foal of mine that I know reproduced has been noted for throwing very correct legs; Mommy was probably the worst of those sorta crooked mares; all of her other foals were noted for correct legs as well, so it obviously wasnt' anything genetic.

    I'd probably breed the mare -- depending on other factors -- like how nice a horse she was and the absence of the two lower limb deformities that are showing heritablity, but I would be looking very hard at the stallion, his pedigree, and his get to see if they had a reputation for correct legs. But I don't breed anymore, so this question is moot to me ;)