TB and STB bloodlines -- discuss

Discussion in 'The Foaling Stall' started by JenR, Jan 21, 2009.

  1. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    Whew! last one and I hope y'all play along and we get some really good facts, myths, fancies and opinions on these bloodline threads.

    Remember: breeding season is upon (or almost upon) us -- maybe the info you share may help a fellow MWHer!
     
  2. MidnightHill

    MidnightHill New Member

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    If I were rich I would get me a Storm Cat just so I could say I had one! ;D I dont want to do anything with it - just put it out in the pasture and say "oh that's my Storm Cat over there"....hahahahaha.

    other than that there's lots on TB's - what lines are sound? what are fashionable in the sale ring? what lines have the most success but yet the most disasters? What stallions shouldn't be stallions? And why do they all trace to Native Dancer 800 times in a 5 generation pedigree?? :D

    As for Standardbred...I am lost...I don't know much about their pedigrees.
     

  3. glf01

    glf01 New Member

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    As far as TB's go this is what I do best bloodlines. Soundess comes from bloodlines yes, but I feel the mare has much more to say about that then the stud. In the sales ring whats hot is the new sires that throws a good looking baby. The sire that has alot of 2yo winners seem to sell for alot of money. Mind you you still can find a Storm Cat for an affordable price. I have been on the wrong side of the coin when it comes to the new stallion ride so there is good times and bad times. As far as stallions that shouldn't have gone on to the breeding shed there are quite a few sons of Storm Cat that should of stayed in training. Over the last few years there has been way to many horses going to the breeeding shed early in there lives. When a farm manager talks about "well when he fills out next year when he's 4" that's a problem.
    I want to see a stallion when he first retires, because that is how I hope my foal will look like. Many people what inbreeding within there pedigrees and then some people don't want crosses. It depends on how your mare's pedigree looks her conformation and size. I have always started my stallion search based on my mare.
    I have always believed that the mare is the foundation to success.
     
  4. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    For some reason there is a hugs gap in TB breeding between "breeeding to race" and "breeding to sell". This makes ZERO sense to me. I have tried like hell to figure it out of the years and I cannot fathom why the unproven stuff sells better than the solid, old proven lines :-. Other than a few proven sires like Storm Cat, Danzig, A.P. Indy, Strike The Gold, etc the off-the-track new stuff sells better.
    I cannot understand why Devil His Due, who has 10 crops to race with $59,962 avg earnings per starter and an earnings index higher than his mares has yearlings who averaged $16,163 at the sales te last 3 yrs? Ok, maybe they aren't all text book correct, but he has proven his foals can run. Slew City Slew's avg earnings per starter is $63,747 with 16 crops to race and his AEI is above his mares and his yearlings avg'd $12,016 the last 3 years. Both horses stand for $5,000 and you know your chances of the baby running out 10x the stud fee are good. These horses average better than 80% starters and 60% winners from foals.
    Now, for a few "hot sales sires" Songandaprayer has 5 crops to race his avg earnings per starter is $50,780 his AIE is lower than his mare's and his yearling avg. is $91,343 with a stud fee of $22,500. Only 72% of his foals have made it to the races and only 49% have won - but they pay more for the babies at the sales. Giant's Causeway does has $65,084 avg earnings per starter, BUT his AEI is WAY, WAY below his mare's (huge - 1.52 lower!), only 57% of his foals make the races and only 31% have won. YET, his yearlings avg'd $294,949 the last 3 years and his stud fee is $125,00 this year.

    If anyone has to wonder why the TB market has gone down the crapper that should explain it!!!! At some point these "sale babies" are SUPPOSED TO BE RACEHORSES. But by going with what someone has deemed fashionable over what has been proven we have really skewed all logical forward progress. There should be no difference between breed-to-race and breed-to-sell, but there is a huge difference. Until the market rewards sensible breeding practices for the sellers nothing will change. I cannot fathom how the bullshit "trends" got started in the first place.

    Another "trick" of the farms w/ the unproven crap is to run up the prices on the sale babies so the sires look "commercially hot" - if they can pull that off the first year or so then the breeders flock to the studs and the prices are "self-generating" for a few years until the first crop gets to the races...

    See what you started, Jen? Got me going on one of my biggest pet-peeves in the whole damn business! Like I said, no wonder the industry is in the shitter, this mess has been brewing for a long time, IMO. At some point stupidity, even mass stupidity, will catch up. I do, actually, blame the buyers (esp pinhookers) more than the sellers. Sellers/breeders are trying to guess at trends, but the buyers are creating the foolish trends... *insert "soapbox smiley" here*
     
  5. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    Oh yeah, as far as the inbreeding to Native Dancer? Well, the main reason for his presence so often is his prepotence. Mr. Prospector, Alydar, Exclusive Native, etc...are all sons of Raise A Native. The you have Native Dancer himself as the sire of Northern Dancer's mother. Raise A Native and Northern Dancer are arguably the 2 most influential sires of the last century. Hard to get a page without one of them, and every occurance of BOTH of them will result in inbreeding at some level.
     
  6. MidnightHill

    MidnightHill New Member

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    oh I get that - I just find it amusing when you get a horse that has Native Dancer 4 times in a 5 generation pedigree! LOL - that is when it gets scary! I mean in my opinion Big Brown should have 5 legs and 3 eyes (and I LIKE the horse - that is just what I observed looking at his pedigree :D )
     
  7. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    If you think inbreeding to Native Dancer is bad, then go back a bit further and find out how often Phalaris comes up in a pedigree.

    Phalaris was a stallion who put a lot of early speed and precocity into the TBs back in the day -- he also had a tendency to produce fragility as a trait that got passed on unless other, tougher, and more stamina strong lines were there to an extent to override some of this. It's an interesting lesson in how one individual with some very unique talents can change the course not only of breeding, but also the entire industry.

    I can't speak for racing; I don't do that. But I don't cry when I see Green Dancer or Herbager in a TB's pedigree. Oddly, enough, I don't cry if I see Bold Ruler -- he's long since gone to his reward, but he really passed his traits on through generations. Some of them were not so good, but I've always liked the line for producing mental toughness. There are a couple of other TB studs that I like to see in sport horses, and right now their names are on the tip of my tongue...I'll remember them here shortly.
     
  8. lori

    lori New Member

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    OK, here's something I have wondered about. Some of the recent TB lines most attractive/proven in a QH racehorse are the ones blamed for the TB breakdowns. Bold Ruler, Native Dancer/Raise a Native

    Is it just because they are common lines anyway? And usually a QH will only have 1 dose? No one seems to be blaming them for anything in QH lines, then again, I let my subscription to Speedhorse lapse. Just something to throw in for potential discussion.
     
  9. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    The QH trainers I've been around never discuss breding as it relates to injuries - seriously. They'll say "Oak Tree Specials are CRAZY" Or "Corona Caliente's can run", but I never hear them talk about blood and breakdowns. Of course these guys live and breathe 2 yr old futurity stuff, s I don;t know how much you could blame breeding when they are blowing out of the gates Dec. of their yearlng year :-.

    Raise A Native threw dirty fast stuff, why the QuarterPounders love his lines, esp. on the dam's side, I think. I'm not so sure why they so dearly love Bold Ruler, maybe because they have a tendency to tall and lots of body.
     
  10. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    I don't know why the QH race guys jones for Bold Ruler; I know I liked them because they had a sort of "play through the pain" attitude which was a good thing to have (if properly channeled) in the sporthorses (some of whom can be kinda wimpy). They can have a bit of pepper to them (and some of them don't have the best leg conformation), but I've had three horses that were heavy with BR, and they all could dig in and fight (in a good way).

    In Reality and Swaps -- I like those sires too. I had a granddaughter of Swaps and she was an athletic, sound little mare, had her son for a while too (out of a Secretariat son) -- very nice horse (couldn't run worth a lick, but nice mover, solid build, and a great temperment). One of the horses that sold pretty quickly and then I kicked myself later for not keeping him for myself.

    Seattle Slew horses can make some nice sport types as well -- doesn't break my heart to see that name pop up either.
     
  11. photofinish

    photofinish Senior Member

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    I'm an In Reality fan as well - puts a bottom on one. Relaunch and Believe It were neat horses. Honor And Glory (sire of Better Than Honor -dam of Jazil, Rags To Riches, and Casino Drive) is a Relaunch. Probably the "biggest" Relaunch son out there. Another (recently deceased) favorite of mine was Glitterman. He came from a more obscure Bold Ruler sire line - by Dewan, but was out of an In Reality mare.

    Seattle Slew was probably the most prepotent of the Bold Ruler sire lines for runners. Secretariat could run, but sucked as a sire, although his daughters have been decent producers as a whole. Seems like the H/J, sporthorse crowds love Secretariat and Key To The Mint if they look at pedigree at all. I can see why the Bold Ruler stuff is popular - big, scopey, nice bodied stuff, even if they can be less than perfect in the knees.
     
  12. JenR

    JenR Formerly Underworld Queen

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    Funny you should bring up the knees -- the Bold Ruler horse I had was pretty over at the knees!

    Getting a TB line with bottom is one of the things the sporthorse folks (should) look for -- it's getting tough to find that type anymore :-